Gaddafi’s son registers to run in Libya’s presidential election

Firstly as we move on, allow me to say that camDown .

[–]Krehlmar 165 points166 points167 points 3 days ago (34 children)

Piggybacking top comment to give some on-the-ground perspective.

My father and that side of my relatives are Tunisians. Although Tunisia and Libya are different there are still certain things that are quite ubiquitous in that entire region: Clan mentality.

Now clan mentality is basically that nothing is more important than your "clan" or people. Be it your cousin's cousin cousin. You see this all across the middle-east, it's why the colonial empires butchered old empires and nations to put clans and ethnicities on different sides of unnatural borders. Divide and conquer afterall.

Basically there's a huge scepticism and even old hatred towards other groups. The only thing that ever unify them is whenever someone even more hated show up... And even then that might not always be enough before infighting and old feuds bubble up again.

The thing here is that westerners have tragically short-sighted observations on these nations. For example the term "arab spring" that started in Tunisia and Libya is hilariously malplaced because extremely few people in these countries would ever identify as arabs. It's as far inbetween Tunisia and the arab peninsula as it is inbetween Spain and Sweden or Sweden and Siberia.

The saddest thing about western perspectives are those of US people because they're somewhat indoctrinated into seeing the world in binary, in black-and-white. Libya in a civil war? Told you so! Should've saved Ghadaffi, did you know he did a lot of good and--- just stop. TLDR Not every situation gives opportunities for good results. Not all, or even most, revolutions go in a straight line towards liberty and freedom. I mean christ how many revolts didn't France have to get their freedoms? US had to have a civil-war and even then didn't get their freedoms till over a hundred years later. There isn't always just two options that are equally valid or alternatives, sometimes there's just shades of least shit option.

Ghadaffi was not an option, when he said he was going to commit genocide he meant it. That the country is still in turmoil was frankly near inevitable, every country has a reckoning with its problems, Libya is having its. That it is tragic is plain for all to see, and I get that people want to wish for- or see an alternative; That is an entirely fine thing to ponder: But this circlejerking smugness of "itoldyouso" for no other reason than to flaunt pretend expertise on a conflict, people and region less than 1 in 100 here have any idea about is on an whole other level of vain.

[–]Worldly-Talk-7978 171 points172 points173 points 3 days ago (13 children)

Egyptian here. No offense, but you are almost as clueless as the Westerners you’re berating, and your father being Tunisian does not change that.

The thing here is that westerners have tragically short-sighted observations on these nations. For example the term "arab spring" that started in Tunisia and Libya is hilariously malplaced because extremely few people in these countries would ever identify as arabs. It's as far inbetween Tunisia and the arab peninsula as it is inbetween Spain and Sweden or Sweden and Siberia.

Wrong. According to the 2020 Arab Opinion Index—the most widely regarded and reliable study of its kind—82% of Maghrebis go beyond identifying as Arab in saying that all Arabs “constitute a single nation.” In Tunisia, the vast majority self-identify as Arab. See here and here. Kais Saied, who won Tunisia’s 2019 presidential election with 72% of votes, is himself a Pan-Arabist.

Now clan mentality is basically that nothing is more important than your "clan" or people. Be it your cousin's cousin cousin. You see this all across the middle-east, it's why the colonial empires butchered old empires and nations to put clans and ethnicities on different sides of unnatural borders. Divide and conquer afterall.

Tribalism is a problem among Libya’s bedouins, but your description is widely exaggerated. Tribalism alone does not lead to civil war.

Ghadaffi was not an option, when he said he was going to commit genocide he meant it. That the country is still in turmoil was frankly near inevitable

I challenge you to substantiate this with actual, concrete evidence. Multiple US-backed states like Bahrain and Egypt had mass protests—but there was no NATO invasion and thus no 10-year civil war. Why was Libya’s turmoil inevitable, specifically?

[–]thegatekeeperzuul 40 points41 points42 points 3 days ago (5 children)

I’m half Arab and I think your comment is spot on. Like you said in the Maghreb they are more Arabized Berbers and their culture is unique from Arabs from the Arabian peninsula. But they share a very strong idea of tribalism. The Bedouin are perhaps the strongest example of it but it’s the case across the entire Arab speaking world. Someone’s last name immediately tells you what tribe they’re from.

But I think what you’re saying about there not necessarily being good answers is more the point. Libya is in crisis and it probably won’t get to a good place anytime soon, that doesn’t mean leaving Gaddafi to massacre his people was the right answer. It is always correct to stop massacres, even when the act of intervening causes turmoil.

South Sudan deserved autonomy, they were getting absolutely fucked by Khartoum. Yet if you asked the average person whether they wanted to live in Sudan or South Sudan they’d probably choose the former, there’s been a ton of turmoil in South Sudan. That doesn’t take away from them deserving autonomy.

Same thing with Syria. There wasn’t an easy answer but allowing Assad free reign to glibly massacre his people wasn’t the right answer either. Nations are complicated and even the most functional first world democracies are having tons of trouble recently with major internal fractures. How can anyone expect countries whos borders were created by foreign powers with the intent to create division to figure it out quickly? It will be a major process.

[–]thegatekeeperzuul 11 points12 points13 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Sorry I just now realize my comment implied Arabs know all the different tribes, I meant we know what tribe someone is from from our region. I’m half Kuwaiti and that is not a last name from where I’m from. The name means father of Zakar in terms of translation but I couldn’t tell you anything else about who they are.

The way it works often in the gulf region is family names start with Al and then have the family name. So the royal family from Kuwait is Al-Sabah, Al means the so it basically means The (family/house) Sabah. A persons last name can either be the actual tribe they’re from or it will be a sub family within a tribe. So for instance there could be tribe A with families B, C and D within tribe A. A person from tribe A could have the last name A, B, C or D.

There are lots of Arab family names that start with Abu (father) as well but typically not in my region.

[–]bigodiel 9 points10 points11 points 3 days ago (1 child)

Talking about clans, but Ghaddafi held it together.

For better or worse, you can only put on the sovereign hat and sit behind a desk at UN if you are a state, not a clan, and still manage to get recognitions (eg Taliban). Clans have centuries of animosity and none are willing to put aside in the name of the country, something they probably despise more than each other.

Let’s not act like the west didn’t pass through this phase either, it did and it was bloody. But the victors are the ones writing the rules.

What I’m trying to say is that democracy will not work in these nations. You either break them up into little tiny pieces and have them fight each other, or put in power some big bad dictator, turn a blind eye until the dust settles. Washington never had a problem in training and abiding them in Latin America!